Irving Thalberg: Q&A with Mark Vieira
"The Wedding of the Painted Doll" number from the musical The Broadway Melody (1929), the first talkie to win a best picture Academy Award; Louis B. Mayer, director Reginald Barker, Irving Thalberg on the set of The Dixie Handicap (1925); Norma Shearer and Chester Morris in the popular pre-Code melodrama The Divorcee (1930).
First of all, why did you decide to write a book on Irving Thalberg?
Ben-Hur, Flesh and the Devil, Tarzan the Ape Man, Grand Hotel, Mutiny on the Bounty, A Night at the Opera, The Good Earth — most filmgoers today have heard of these Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer classics. Yet, few know the name of the genius behind them.
Nicknamed the “Boy Wonder,” Irving G. Thalberg was running Universal Pictures at the age of twenty and M-G-M at twenty-three. Between 1924 and 1936, he supervised more than four hundred M-G-M films; made stars of Lon Chaney, William Haines, Ramon Novarro, Greta Garbo, Robert Montgomery, Joan Crawford, Clark Gable, Marie Dressler, Wallace Beery, Jean Harlow, and Helen Hayes; innovated story conferences, sneak previews, and extensive retakes; introduced the horror film; and co-authored the Production Code.
By age thirty-seven he was Hollywood’s greatest producer, his films a rare blend of commercialism and taste. Then, as he stood poised to lead the cinema to new heights, he died. With a legacy of classics, surely his place in the pantheon would be assured.
However, Thalberg’s films were not reissued for twenty years. In that time, critics such as Pauline Kael used foolish and often hostile apocrypha to smear his legend, portraying him as a humorless advocate of canned theater, an exploiter of writers, and a myopic obsessive who foisted an untalented wife on an unwilling public. [That's apparently the actually quite talented Norma Shearer, above in Strangers May Kiss (1931).]
So, Thalberg is one of the most misunderstood, misquoted, mysterious and maligned figures in film history. I wanted to set the record straight. Even though there have been three biographies of Thalberg, I felt that I could bring a fresh perspective. I have seen the vast majority of his films. I am a filmmaker and photographer. I write in strict chronology, using archival documents to create the most accurate timeline possible. In addition, I gained access to Norma Shearer’s unpublished memoir notes, so I felt that I had an inside track.
Irving Thalberg possessed a much-admired talent for picking out stories and was widely respected for being an enthusiastic proponent of "classy entertainment," including the production of a number of prestigious literary adaptations. Where did that come from?
He endured long stretches of childhood illness. His only weapon against fear and boredom was a well-stocked library. He learned to love the classics. He was told that he would not live past thirty. He pushed himself into the film industry and then pushed to make films of the same caliber as the books he had read as a child.
[Above, cinematographer Hendrik Sartov, director King Vidor, Thalberg, and Lillian Gish on the La Boheme (1926) set.]
On the other hand, Thalberg and Louis B. Mayer have been accused of cheapening those prestigious literary adaptations to make them more palatable to the average filmgoer. Is that a fair assessment of what MGM did in the 1920s and 1930s? And if so, was Thalberg the one responsible for that approach?
In only two cases did Mayer or Thalberg change the end of a classic story: Tess of the D’Urbervilles and the silent version of Anna Karenina, which was called Love. It’s more fair to point out that only Thalberg would have filmed The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Resurrection, Strange Interlude, or Private Lives.
[Above, Norma Shearer in Romeo and Juliet.]
Much has been written about the complex relationship between Louis B. Mayer and Irving Thalberg. What’s your take on that? Who would you say was responsible for MGM’s success during the Depression years, when most other studios were on the verge of bankruptcy?
The story of their relationship is a tragic one. A filial affection turned cold and competitive after they achieved wealth and power. Neither could have accomplished singly what they did as a team, turning a newly formed production company into the world’s most successful studio—and in only three years.
It was Thalberg’s creative vision that brought M-G-M an $8-million-dollar profit in the worst year of the Great Depression, when every other studio was either in the red or in receivership. He dared to film an eclectic array of projects.
Most film historians cite 1939 as the greatest year of classics. I feel that 1932 is equally impressive, because it was then that the talking picture regained the fluidity of the silent film. In addition, lax censorship allowed for such projects as Red Dust and Grand Hotel. Every studio made great films that year. Think of A Farewell to Arms, 42nd Street, Trouble in Paradise, Love Me Tonight, American Madness, Call Her Savage, I Am a Fugitive from a Chain Gang, Scarface, The Sign of the Cross, and The Old Dark House. But only M-G-M’s films were truly profitable.
[Above: top photo, Myrna Loy in The Mask of Fu Manchu; lower photo, Johnny Weismuller, Maureen O'Sullivan, and Neil Hamilton in the box-office hit Tarzan the Ape Man -- two other 1932 MGM releases.]
What about Irving Thalberg’s relationship with MGM’s directors, say, Victor Fleming (above, with author Upton Sinclair and cinematographer George Barnes on the set of The Wet Parade [1932]), Clarence Brown, Robert Z. Leonard, W. S. Van Dyke, Jack Conway, King Vidor?
Thalberg cast directors in the same way he cast actors. It’s safe to say that he held an independent thinker like King Vidor in higher esteem than a contract director like Jack Conway. He did allow W. S. Van Dyke, a routine director of Westerns, to create the lyrical and powerful White Shadows in the South Seas. [Van Dyke later moved up the MGM ladder to become one of the studio's most prestigious and successful directors.] But Thalberg reserved his true esteem for writers.
And inevitably, what about Irving Thalberg’s relationship with MGM’s remarkable star roster? Apart from wife Norma Shearer, did he have any favorites? Any least favorites?
I didn’t get the sense that Thalberg had the feeling for actors that he did for writers. He was tolerant of actors, but had a true friendship with only one, Charles Laughton. His relationship with actors was primarily trying to find the formula that worked and squeezing the juice out of it; Ramon Novarro is a good example I think Thalberg was easily bored by actors. Why else would he let Novarro, John Gilbert, William Haines, and Helen Hayes slide into unpopularity?
[Novarro, who, like so many performers of the studio era, got stuck in repetitive star vehicles, was quoted by author DeWitt Bodeen as saying, "I was dying to have my career managed by Irving Thalberg, but I soon realized that his only star interest was his wife. If Norma needed or wanted something, I could be left sitting in his waiting room for a week until she got it." Please note that in his articles Bodeen could be quite "creative" with some of Novarro's quotes.]
[Above, Greta Garbo aboard the Swedish liner Drottningholm upon her arrival in the United States in 1925. This was her first American publicity photo, taken by James Sileo.]
Irving Thalberg was known for finding good stories, but was he also good at finding future stars? In addition to Norma Shearer, who else did Thalberg nurture?
Thalberg made stars of Lon Chaney [above, with Victor McLaglen and Harry Earles in The Unholy Three (1925)], William Haines, Ramon Novarro [Thalberg was the one who told Novarro that he had landed the coveted role of Ben-Hur], Greta Garbo [right, in The Temptress (1927)], Joan Crawford, Clark Gable, Robert Montgomery, Marie Dressler, Wallace Beery, Jean Harlow, and Helen Hayes.
He could not work the same magic with Lawrence Tibbett, Grace Moore (oddly enough, Harry Cohn succeeded with her [at Columbia in the mid-1930s]), Alfred Lunt and Lynn Fontanne [whose sole MGM effort, The Guardsman [1931], earned them both Academy Award nominations, but failed to set the box office on fire], or Diana Wynyard.
Like Irving Thalberg, David O. Selznick was also seen as a sort of Boy Wonder. He also happened to become Thalberg’s rival at MGM in the mid-1930s. In your view, what would be the chief differences between the two, both in terms of their output and their approach to the filmmaking process?
Selznick was a compulsive tamperer. Thalberg knew when to step back and let the artists create. And he knew when a project had been worked on sufficiently.
Also, both Irving Thalberg and David O. Selznick promoted their lovers/wives: Thalberg had Norma Shearer (above), who became the Queen of MGM; later on, Selznick had Jennifer Jones. Some have blamed Selznick’s professional downturn on his obsession with Jones’ stardom. Was Thalberg ever accused of cheapening or derailing his output in order to promote Norma Shearer vehicles?
Joan Crawford [right, in a publicity shot for Our Blushing Brides (1930)] wanted Paid, The Divorcee, and A Free Soul. She accused Thalberg of favoritism because she only got to play in Paid. “Sex is a very potent weapon,” she told Bob Thomas on the subject of Shearer and Thalberg in 1967. Other than these three films, there were no roles for which both actresses were equally suited. Can you see Shearer in Dancing Lady? Or Crawford in Private Lives?
On the other hand, it is my opinion that The Women should have been a pre-Code film with Jean Harlow as Crystal, Shearer as Sylvia, and Crawford as Mary Haines. [The 1939 release had Shearer as Haines, Crawford as Crystal, and Rosalind Russell as Sylvia.]
Irving Thalberg and Erich von Stroheim. Art vs. commerce, or pragmatism vs. self indulgence? Both? What’s your opinion?
I found evidence that Thalberg tried to save [the multi-reeled] Greed, but that preview audiences turned it down cold. He did not want to cut it. Mine may be an indefensible stance, but I think Stroheim was out of control even when his films were (almost) on time and under budget. He was a great “idea” man, but a poor executor of those ideas.
Ironically, Thalberg fell into the same trap; i.e., compulsive extravagance. The Good Earth and Romeo and Juliet were completely out of control when he died. They were not improved by overspending, but they are certainly nice to look at.
The most enjoyable part of writing this book was discovering films that I thought I knew and should discount. I most highly recommend the following: Captain Salvation, The Fire Brigade, Private Lives, and Skyscraper Souls. Prosperity is a minor masterpiece. Run, don’t walk, to see it.
[Above, Gibson Gowland and Jean Hersholt -- looking like anything but a humanitarian -- in Greed's sun-drenched climax.]
Irving Thalberg may have had a knack for choosing the right moneymaking vehicles for his stars. But was he ever responsible for a major (or even mid-sized) flop? If so, could you give us a couple of examples? Also, were there projects that Thalberg was desperate to make, but that never came to fruition?
Rasputin and the Empress [right], as much as I like it, was a flop because Thalberg spent too much money trying to find an interpretation that stuck; ditto for Riffraff. Freaks was also a conspicuous failure, yet even in its short version it’s a masterpiece.
Thalberg wanted to make The Forty Days of Musa Dagh, the story of the Armenian genocide by the Turks, but international diplomacy killed the project. I wish that he had made Sinclair Lewis’ It Can’t Happen Here [1935, about the possibility of a fascist government in the United States, as people blindly follow their leaders], which is timely even now.
The name Irving Thalberg has become synonymous with Quality Film Producer, as attested by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences’ Irving G. Thalberg Award. Would you say that Thalberg’s reputation for being the man best able to mix art and commerce is well deserved?
That image is well deserved. Only Selznick had as many hits made from literary classics. Thalberg was able to create hits from both literary and theatrical properties.
[Above, Mamo Clark and Clark Gable in the Academy Award-winning Mutiny on the Bounty.]
And finally, is there anyone today who might come close to who/what Irving Thalberg was?
I wish.
Norma Shearer and Irving Thalberg aboard (poorly remembered but very powerful mogul) Joseph Schenck’s yacht in 1934 (top); former MGM rivals Joan Crawford and Norma Shearer, and Shearer’s husband from 1942 — the year she retired from films — to her death in 1983, Marti Arrouge (middle); Norma Shearer in later years (bottom).
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sounds interesting, and I’m sure I’ll take a look at this.
However, I do think that, beginning with F. Scott Fitzgerald (if not before), the fascination with Thalberg has served to obscure many other, possibly more interesting creative producers. Certainly, Warner Bros. (Zanuck) AND Universal (Carl Laemmle Jr.) both turned out much more visceral films during the early 1930s than MGM did.
And, too, Selznick’s MGM projects are FAR more interesting than Thalberg’s during the time in which they co-existed at the studio, aren’t they?
Dinner at Eight vs Grand Hotel?
David Copperfield or Tale of Two Cities vs. Mutiny On the Bounty?
for me, it’s no contest.
I’m not on Pauline Kael’s side either–I like Thalberg’s movies (and Norma Shearer) a lot… but isn’t it possible that the “Boy Wonder”’s rep has become inflated (by writers) over the years, precisely because of his paradoxical pro-writer stance (despite the fact that he perfected the writer-by-committee system)?
that’s something I’d like to see explored, even more than the producer’s life (and I LOVE The Last Tycoon)… also–when are we gonna see a book on Carl Laemmle Jr? Now THERE’s a tragic life!!!
Dave
re: …Jean Harlow as Crystal, Shearer as Sylvia, and Crawford as Mary Haines.
Jean as Crystal? Definitely.
Shearer as Sylvia? Perhaps.
Crawford as Mary Haines? After seventy years, Billy Wilder’s “looks like a praying mantis who forgot how to pray”, and “no more wire hangers”, I really don’t see Joan in that role at all. But hindsight IS 20/20.